Dunno

[Trace]

Thanks Holland.....
It's ummm good to be on ur messageboard too (not that I understand half of whats being said but thats OK) I'm in Toronto Canada....and yet for some strange reason am drawn to dutch servers and forums

[G3HENNA2000]

;D

Je hebt gelijk Holland als je die a21 ziet isd het net een
cartoon die op 12 frames per second gedraait word
je mist 50 procent van zijn frames..en dan ben ik op de zelfde conclusie als jouw gekomen Timenudge -20
ofzo...Die upload verhalen kloppen niet van hem volgens mij..kijk op haast alle servers word er maar een
upload van 10K max toegelaten(is standaard)
dus dan kan je wel een fooking OC3 van mij part hebben
die megabits up spuiten kan...maar het zal 10 k blijven
in een online game..q3..
www.gehenna.web1000.com
mazzelllll

[Erm]

What an abuse language again !!!!

PS, timenudge is a clientside variable, normally only used to compensate positive lagdifferences. I really challenge to think this will influence the other players information they get from the server side. But I will test this tonight.
Missed frames usually point at bad connections or PL,
next time spec with netgraph on, before you accuse.
R.

[Blowfish]

To: a2i:

I assume from your post due to it being in Dutch that it was not directly aimed at me, however I do feel that it is slightly misleading for those who are able to read it. Your point seemed to be based around your upload bandwidth. Your analogy of your car and jet cannot really be applied here.

T-1 has a 1:1 contention ratio and a bandwidth of 1.544mbits/s up or down, although in Europe it is more likely to be E1 (2.048mbits/s). Given that UK ADSL is up to 2mbit/s with a contention ratio of ~50:1 and UK cable has 512kbits/s download (only recently 1mbit/s) with a contention ratio of around 2:1 (4:1 for 1mbit), Dutch cable seems to vary from 160kbits/s to 2Mbits/s download and 128-512kbits/s upload. You can compare this to UK isdn of 128kbits/s 1:1 and make up your own mind which is better

The issue of latency or ping (ICMP not Quake 'ping'*), is as you say, important. If you're familiar with Quake 3 network settings you'll see that actually this plays only a part of the responsiveness between what happens on the server and your reaction to it. There are, loosely-speaking, three factors here, that being the delay from an event on the server to when it is rendered on-screen, the data transit delay and finally the client-server upload delay.

Firstly the server-client delay is inherent to quake and adds 50ms for sv_fps 20. Running the server at a higher sv_fps can reduce this albeit at a higher cpu usage (same bandwidth depending on sv_maxrate). The transit is dependent entirely on the connection type, location and number of hops to the server. Finally the client-server upload delay; commands from the keyboard/mouse etc could in theory be sent to the server as soon as a new command is found. This could however result in hundreds to packets which would not suit a hyperactive modemer

Instead the cl_maxpackets command determines how many packets are to be sent per second. The effect this has in terms of adding a delay depends on the setting, typically for default 1000ms/60 = 16.7ms delay. Due to saw-toothing, half of this value might be an appropriate estimate. The actual ping may therefore have quite a small effect on how the game handles, in a game which is naturally laggy.

In addition you might talk about the inclusion of human reaction times which probably would range from 100-250ms. We'll leave that out of this discussion though.

So as a quick test: Quake upload and download bandwidth usage during ffa - q3dm2, majority of time in plasma area, crowded server at vuurwerks. sv_maxrate is 50000, sv_fps 20. snaps 40, cl_maxpackets 60, rate 10000.

elitekillers.thrustworld.com/members/blowfish/q3-network-usage.gif

[/img][/center]

The green line in the graph represents download bandwidth usage, and the red line represents upload bandwidth. The usage is expressed as a percentage of 10Mbits. You can see at the beginning of the graph that the upload is initially 0; this is where I am vid_restart'ing. For the remainder of the graph the download rate varies quite a bit, although getting no where near to my 'rate' setting. The upload bandwidth usage is pretty stable for the duration. You can see the 'Network Utilization' at the end of the test named as 0.42%, which checks out from the graph also (although the gridlines seem a bit random). Rounded-up a bit this suggests it is using 50kbits/s (6.25kBps) upload or thereabouts, which even on a 10kbytes/s upload is only 62.5% utilisation. The download rate is also within the realms of most 'BB's (taking UK isdn to not be broad-band).

The amount of bandwidth available to you depends on what else the connection is being used for. This obviously also depends on whether or not you are directly connected, or sharing the connection (such as ADSL). Even so the demands placed on your connection by quake are quite small.

The only other issue here is that of packet loss. This depends on the quality of your connection/ISP, the reliability of the routing to the server, the number of hops. There are settings in quake to help with this to a degree.

Given the in-built delays, it is unlikely that you would ever see plasma or rockets all the time; this is just part of the game and we all get it. Just from the server tick-rate alone you lose 50ms, plasma is set to a speed of around 1000 compared with player speed of 320. And I have also played on UK cable and ADSL, so know how it handles. A positive timenudge can help here, especially seeing your own rockets as they fire.

* a misnomer, which takes into account the effect of snaps setting** (1000ms/20 = 50ms) and cl_maxpackets (1000ms/60 = 16.7ms), since it is a timed round-trip (see above).

** with interpolation keeps at a constant 50ms, without (cl_nopredict 1), will average out to 25ms but will appear very jerky at 20Hz updates.

[lol]

LOL goes to far 4 me.
But i dont got a problem whit y coinnection.

[Hollland]

Torronto thads far a way.
Why dont u play on us servers then.
Your ping shut be bether there.

[A2I]

Only one thing the way how the data you send is applied isnt seen by any theory T1 ...or scanning device this is how its works....I see you jump through crowded area's taking minimal damage I/or any can/would even imagine seeing that in/for a 1000games(not only you ofcourse the plain thing I say ussual is things about dsl seems to look so easy and fake!,and I do not only believe dsl data is more aggresive,the starting lines of sending data is perfect with dsl, T1 haha no comment,just dont compare ? (continueing with : again nothing to do with ping) comparing as to the lazyness of how my cable @home shows with 16k upstream (IC a ping 48 rocket launched waiting wow my 56k modem had better timeing) I have lately 10k most of the times(but that would be bla bla simpley said I know its bad (1:50 ratio we talk of here is same as KPN xdsl basic with 128kb upstream true) And not all 16k cables are lazy,see close UPC R'dam and close A'dam former A2K is pretty good (close to the backbone of amsix) going further to Hilversum A2k seems to get bad,same ping same thing just somewhere it gets lazy and with the same player saying this I cant be all so wrong,ofcourse most of the good streaming again not only ping depends if your close to the core of your backbone isp provider witch means again I can say only one thing,I can stand on the back of my heels and jump as far as I want but my starting movement and streaming to the server is way to low,witch you believe is stuck at 10kand most think its moaning about pings,guess again its not (and there your wrong,that the upstream is capped) (but thats theory) anyways,compare this,if the download capacity, pushes my upload down that means I am right about the brick walls I feel when more then 14players join, rockets through players,plasma's seem to dissapear(wow I shot 50 plasma ammo rounds were did it go?hmmm),armours fall of like snow in the sun,it feels like seeing most of the time saying in the best possible way it can be over here the bike vs the ferrari(remember q1 win a ferrari!!) well it doesnt work you can say if we look to horse power and movement with the bike it may win cus it has no engine only me therefor,continueing :" I kept cycling for a long time to see this variousness of connections and joiners in vuur there's not one ruler with cable,16k dutch" (witch means cheap halleluja) and ofcourse were not comparing us with skilled players just fraggers,though low on ping to be max updated,therefor the data you send to the server is lethal late for me,same goes for dsl ping even at ping 98!! imagine that they shoot pretty acurate for a ping 98????duh..thats what you cant explain(oh yes easy said for those who dont understand you have to aim better mr. A2I and thats there good right I let them laugh at what a lamer I have to be somewere or like this put ur timenudge off wel nice try but noticed I play without timenudge and people say crappy and shakey yea sorry..tell me it sucks,eventhough it looks I have a 16k upload most dutch cables outside the bigg city is therefor poor for realtime 3d shooting imagine that called gaming,only one thing I am finding amuzing (is that its not only one thing anymore)is that you compare my connection as an isdn line 4the upload that is..and thats pretty what we found out.I feel the brick walls of players arround me after more then 14,5(half? yea probley me) joining (thats twice too rememba,I studied counseling so its good to repeat some things..lol maybe you read the fun of it I hope it does where? hu? me? naw)the only thing I can do...is 1on1 kill hitting spawn places and not walk out of any plasma aims witch put 100-100 down in 2secs,its quite simple I cant move it hangs and you die....therefor its pretty hard to say all uk connections are probley better germans to? the way I see it is a yes,I heard so many experts say so good things about perfect lans and wares but the best lans were made by those who play the game,and not the money therefor I see only one lan in Holland is very agrresive and good the guys from Netgames.....allways had the best,they dont look at theory's they look at how does it feel...and can we do it again,again in this world of evolution I cannot buy a T1 sorry,but do you understand,some things cant be done without the same volumes.....its a feeling a config doesnt make the network,if you got acces to goodies of an ultimate inet connex it doesnt mather what settings you have,you kill with the greatest accuracy you can imagine..avoiding rockets peace of cake.....and yea some do play great ofcourse I just wonder if we all started to play with T1 in the beginning who was really the best...imagine that. TBC -->

[A2I]

- There is this theory of simpley said and understand this game has to be synchronized somewhere so if we took the 3d environment out and put this game in blocks and rasters/rosters..

we see a little raster Blowfish T1 (Ferrari)
vs the bigg block/roster raster A2I cable (Bakfiets)
thats were it synchronizes (we have a game ! )

You can therefor run through crowded area's
I can do it and die in two rockets..
perfect machingun Mr Blowfish....yea I kill everyone in dm17 (1?1) gg!
ok Next thing Quad?
T1 or Dsl is quad
so you might feel to good for it....(and dont read me wrong not you,but Ive seen others)
But the best Tdm'ers know quad makes the difference..
-Just between you and me mr blowfish I was a little dissapointed when I scanned your ip and I saw ,oh no my idol is on T1,what to think now is up to me cus I Have have to get ridd of the connexion I have now,so its good to be patience and be aware if you start to miss ur rockets on me cus Im not getting a T1 but I hope its good enough for u later... so see you and do appreciate the lamers dont PLAY ON T1 FFS@#$!

live in peace. hehe...

did you know a dogg can Bark ?
fart too ? ok..

[Trace]

First off.....Holland....I dont play on servers closer to me cuz they're usually empty or little kids on the server....Canadians really dont know lots about quake soooo believe it or not I go to a Canadian server and get called a bot Plus...in case you haven't noticed I talk to lots of people on the vuurwerk server...and altho I believe most of them would gladly follow me to any server I played on ( ;D) for the most part I like the atmosphere in vuurwerk....most players dont take the game too serious...and its usually fun .... Which was the intention of me leaving my first and original message on this board days ago.....Just for a laugh....but now I see its turned into all this connection stuff...and I really cant follow all this.....to be honest.... I understand the concept of people having better connections then me...and how frustrating it can be to respawn and have someone turn their put-put gun on me and I die instantly....but even I apparently have this massive connection....so I never complain....Think the discussions about connection is overdone...overcooked...overrated....overexaggerated even.....For the same reason I go into vuur knowing most people have a ping advantage over me...think others that enter the server should know what they're capable of ...and fine...we all cant drive ferrari's....thats one of lifes little lessons isnt it? So either put up with what u got....change it ...or deal with it.....And no disrespect at all to Mr A2I who's connection I've played on and know it sux .... He knows I'd rather play on my high pinged Canadian connection anyday then his dutch one..... So MR A2I ... hurry and get ur better connection so u can be one of the 'fakers' lol and all the rest of u .... be good...have fun .... frag u soon (and dont forget about the 12th hu which was the whole reason for my original message )

[HoLLand]

Shame the game is not popular in cannada.
U welcome 2 play in HollanD:)
I think thad vuurwerk is the only ffa server left where more than 10 players play.
FFA is death i think.
I give up ffa for a long time now.
Ones in a while its fun 2 play ffa,but not 2 muts.
Most of the time i play threewave capture strike ore tourney.

oke enuf typing now:)

[Scar]

wow look im on vacation for a d**n week and see what happens here! LOL this is like the open world messageboard of who has the best connection Oke im not gonna react here on those (confusing ) things a2i and blowfish are explaining. I believe thier both right and for 4 euros an hour im not gonna read al that nuts cause then i would be broke (again ;D). So heres my story. Most of the time I play on dutch cable wich is provided by upc. It really sucks most of the time. At my parents house i play on a adsl connection sometimes....yes its much better. In the beginning is was really excited with cable cause my ping was 30 sometimes, but now ive been playin it for a year and have come to the conclusion i would go for adsl when i have the chance (and that is soon cause my cablecontract with upc comes to its end next month).

Second people please dont throw mud to each other bout a game. I respect blowfish, a2i and Holland as good players. Ther one i like better as a person as the other but hey thats life isnt it? So just lets play the game a bit and....cause its just a game (even i get mad and kinda playin with my fourth mouse in a year cause all the other once ar smashed on my desk )).

oke last Trace ill type in english from now on so you know what the f**k im talking bout, k sugar? Well thats it from sunny greece for now. See u guys soon i suppose, kinda weird being quake-clean at the moment

Greets,

Scar

[FFWoKkEl]

hi all i have adsl con & i saw the difference from my adsl 2 this adsl from this guy in vuur last nite he waz moving so fast even my adsl missed sum of his moves so i do get this cable -adsl kill difference now
ill try 2 kick all ur asses if i can have fun & may the quake b with u:P

[Trace]

K what about throwing mud if we're all naked then? ;D Scar...u dont have to write in english only....I'm aware I'm on a dutch forum....maybe u make more sense in dutch??? But ur sweet all the same for thinking of me...The way I see it tho...the parts that are in dutch probably wouldnt interest me anyways lol and aren't directed at me....so its kewl Holland...you namelamer u thanks for making me feel ummmm welcome lol and nofear you're a FREAK man lol See u all soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HoLLand]

So sorry DARLING.

[Blowfish]

To: a2i

Thank you for your punctuated punctual reply. You paint an endearing image of sporty Blowfish in his new Ferrari and poor old A2i on his rusty pedal bike. I was hoping for more a technically-based answer, rather than your suggestion that my data somehow has a shiny red coating. Or, perhaps you are suggesting that it propagates through the same network at a faster rate and is handled differently by the server?

You suggest that I say your upstream bandwidth is capped to a fixed 10kBps. I did no such thing and re-reading my post you will find I actually spent a paragraph naming the various reasons why not. Yes of course T-1 had a nice Utopian reputation while we were all on modems for obvious reasons, but compared to current cable technology, for this application, there is limited benefit. You reference aspects of the game (unseen plasma stripping away health, hangs) which I too find familiar as if I do not experience them myself.

I was never saying that T-1 and Dutch DSL are the same if in the same country and a similar number of hops from the server. But of course it depends for which application they are being used, and in addition how much of a quantifiable or qualifiable impact the difference actually makes.

I hoped you would have understood my reference to ISDN in the second paragraph in relation to our initial conversation online in which I recall discussing UNR Blokey etc. My later comment about it was that it CAN handle the upstream bandwidth (which a numer of players I know demonstrate regularly), I did make the point though that it CANNOT handle the same downstream rate.

I was hoping in your reply you would contest the points I raised, perhaps discussing latency/bandwidth relation. Instead, I will do that here to an extent so we know what we are both talking about and can discuss things without reference to Italian-made cars. I will start where I left off discussing upstream data.

As I mentioned before, the upstream data rate for quake is controlled by the cl_maxpackets command. Specifically this determines how many packets are sent, per second, to the server. These packets contain the six degrees of freedom of the player (x,y,z and polar) as well as actions (termed 'events') and commands*. Typically this can be done in 17+ bytes. You can see the size of the bytes generated by using the 'showpackets 1' command, looking at 'client send' **. Standing still doing nothing takes around 20-30 bytes, running around and firing take it up. Remember, unlike some other fps's, quake is a server-side game. That is to say the actual calculations for movement and hit detection are done on the server (with the exception of some which can be handled by cl_predictitems 1).

What you will notice is having other players in the game doesn't push up the upstream data size on it's own. Being as frantic as possible you can only get it slightly over 70 bytes (perhaps OGC on high client fps manages more?). Okay, now the important point; this is UDP and cannot be fragmented, so the size of the packets is for most cases the same, regardless of cl_maxpackets. The number of packets set determines how much data the client uploads and how often it is updated on the server (remembering that the server runs at 20Hz regardless). Here's a figure of how the upload rate varies with different maxpackets settings.

Okay, there are a number of important issues here. The main one being how latency is affected. If more packets are uploaded to the server, given that each will contain its 64 bit overhead, the latency from client to server will also go up. You can see this in your 'ping'. You might have expected from idealised version that the upstream latency remain constant until the connection is saturated, after which packets are dropped, which is not the case. You can see from the figure below that latency typically increases the nearer you get close to the saturation - although the performance for each connection will vary, it's conceptually similar. You can visulise this from the mechanics of the packets being queued, some are delayed, some sliently dropped.

Of course, a mute point is that dropped packets matter less if you send more updates; the average increase in latency is more of a problem. I use maxpackets 60 for no real reason other than it is with what I am familiar, but have seen many cable players using 30. 60 also means that I send a packet roughly ever other frame and I get in three updates for each server fps.

[Continued...]